Ireland's Pit Bull Terrier Association (IPBTA)
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JUST A FEW QUESTIONS.

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JUST A FEW QUESTIONS.

Post by Guest on Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:41 am

OK


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Re: JUST A FEW QUESTIONS.

Post by ste on Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:23 pm

how's it goin mate,as far as shipping from the states is concerned no its not straightforward, i looked into it myself and it wasn't possible, first off your looking at possibly travelling to the states to see the kennels and dam and sire then buying the pup 500 dollars +(minimum) then having the dog shipped is another couple hundred,all in all i'd say your looking at about 2000 or more and when you get the dog into the country they have to be quarantined for 6 months (there is a loophole here but i couldnt find enough info on it i think you have to get the pup seen to in the states and given some kind of cert or something) just be careful cos the last thing you would want is a mistake to be made and your pup is locked up for 6 months at such a vital age...id suggest you start looking at european kennels there is a lot of kennels there that imported from the states years ago and have established great kennels with papered dogs and it's a lot easier getting them into the country without quarantine,and lastly a lot of the american kennels are breeding gamer dogs than what we have here with many still game-testing(matching their dogs) so chances are you would end up with a pretty dog aggressive dog which may be a handful with three other dogs,just to make you aware of it there are american staff breeders in ireland with papered dogs if your interested

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Re: JUST A FEW QUESTIONS.

Post by Guest on Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:02 pm

no they are not pits. also the dog has to go tru 6months quarantene so the dog would be ruined by the time you get it if it survives the journey.

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Re: JUST A FEW QUESTIONS.

Post by celticpitbulls on Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:09 am

ste wrote:,and lastly a lot of the american kennels are breeding gamer dogs than what we have here with many still game-testing(matching their dogs) so chances are you would end up with a pretty dog aggressive dog which may be a handful with three other dogs,

i always thought the original breeding's of most pit bloodlines in America come from English and Irish dogs, most of the famous bloodlines in America originated from England and Ireland. unfortunately we do still have game-testing and matching dogs here in Ireland, gameness would be more a submission quality rather than aggression. a game bread dog can in fact be more stable around other dogs than others, a game bread dog is also specifically bred to be human friendly. this is the other side to the conversation to back yard breeders, they breed for looks etc, were as the so called "dog man" breeds for performance and temperament. most breeds we have in Ireland are some how related to these bloodlines and people just don't know it.
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Re: JUST A FEW QUESTIONS.

Post by ste on Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:43 am

in my opinion there is three kinds of breeders in ireland today, the very small minority of knowledgable dog men who match dogs, the very small minority of decent breeders and then the huge majority back yard breeders that dont have a clue what there doing. you wouldnt just stumble across a well bred fighting dog as they tend to be a very closed off circle and these dogs usually go for big money, i completely dissagree with matching dogs in this day and age but at very least we know those dogs will be human friendly where as with the byb u dont know what kind of temperament there breeding into dogs very often human aggression. i agree celtic that dog aggression and gameness arent directly related but any dog being matched obviously wouldnt be taken out of a breeding program for showing dog aggression so in a way although not related dog fighters are breeding dog aggression into the dogs genes....your right about the pitbulls being brought to the states where they were developed into a new breed, from ireland, but due to the fact that up until 1976 dog fighting in the states was legal and extremely popular where as in ireland it wasnt popular at all with the general public the dogs temperaments adjusted accordingly with most staffies today in ireland being fine with other dogs whereas in the states they are still using the dogs for their original purpose and therefore tend to have a lot of dog aggression.

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Cheers.

Post by Guest on Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:00 am

OK


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Re: JUST A FEW QUESTIONS.

Post by ste on Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:14 pm

mate just to let u know those dogs aren't even considered pitbulls anymore,they have been cross bred with molosser breeds and english bulldogs etc. they are called american bully's and because they are being bred purely for aesthetics they are developing a lot of health problems a lot of them can barely walk/run etc. each to their own if thats what your into but just beware of the breeders dealing in "rare blue" colours or for ridiculously big head,massive chest,short legs these dogs are not healthy......i know of a breeder of bully's in the states who seems to be breeding functional bullys here's the site [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] see what you think good luck

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Re: JUST A FEW QUESTIONS.

Post by celticpitbulls on Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:58 pm

[/quote] STE in my opinion there is three kinds of breeders in ireland today, the very small minority of knowledgable dog men who match dogs, the very small minority of decent breeders and then the huge majority back yard breeders that dont have a clue what there doing.

To be honest ste there are just as many dog men who match dogs as there is back yard breeders here in Ireland you can trust me on that,


[/quote] STE you wouldnt just stumble across a well bred fighting dog as they tend to be a very closed off circle and these dogs usually go for big money,

yes i agree that game dogs were only meant for the purpose of "dog man" and that used to be a rule way back that game dogs were not for the public, but not today i have to disagree on that 1, where do you think the jeep bloodline came from?? not sure if you ever heard of the dog called 34dollers?? and as i was explaining to you about gameness, even with a programed breeding from so called "dog man" gameness is NEVER guaranteed to any litter's out of ch bred dogs it has being knowing for these kind of breeding's to also produce as dog man would call them a litter of cur's, the truth is that you will never know if your dog is game unless he or she is tested and as we are so against dog fighting i guess we will never know and that is regardless of the way he or she is bred, i suppose our gameness as pet owners is our dogs eager to please clownish, loving loyalty spirit and in all fairness you could have a game dog and you wouldn't even know it.

[/quote] ste, i completely dissagree with matching dogs in this day and age but at very least we know those dogs will be human friendly where as with the byb u dont know what kind of temperament there breeding into dogs very often human aggression.

this is where i find the biggest problem when it comes to the word aggression in dogs, human or dog aggression, regardless of what breed the first encounter of life when a pup is born is a calm assertive energy, no dog is ever born with aggressive tendency, aggression is something that
develops over time when an owner doesn't notice the early signs such as dominant behavior etc, i would ask myself why my dog is starting to show these signs rather than put it down to the way he or she was bred.



[/quote] ste i agree celtic that dog aggression and gameness arent directly related but any dog being matched obviously wouldnt be taken out of a breeding program for showing dog aggression so in a way although not related dog fighters are breeding dog aggression into the dogs genes....

ste aggression is something that "dog men" will tell you they dont want in their dog, you can have an aggressive dog but he or she may not be game, meaning aggression doesn't even come into it when a dog is being hurt that is where the gameness comes into it. gameness means a dog will keep going regardless of the suffering and pain that poor dog is going true, aggression is not what saves them its heart. this is why i always say that most people think aggression is the main tool bred into pit bulls, when in fact what dog man are doing is trying to breed submission out of the breed.



[/quote] ste your right about the pitbulls being brought to the states where they were developed into a new breed, from ireland,

they weren't really developed into a new breed they were just not called "pit bulls" at that stage. in the early 1800s JP colby would wait as a child for the Irish emigrants and their dogs, he would buy them and selectively breed Irish dogs with each other that's were the Colby line also came from. JP colby would also travail to Ireland for the reason he said was that the best game dogs he ever produced were of Irish origin.


[/quote] STE but due to the fact that up until 1976 dog fighting in the states was legal and extremely popular where as in ireland it wasnt popular at all with the general public the dogs temperaments adjusted accordingly with most staffies today in ireland being fine with other dogs whereas in the states they are still using the dogs for their original purpose and therefore tend to have a lot of dog aggression.

ste no 2 dogs will ever have the same temperament, there was more dog fighting and rating going on in Ireland and England than the states in the late 1800s, dog fighting was ban in Canada in 1892, The Cruelty to Animals Act 1835 of England and Wales was the first legislation in the world that made dog fighting illegal.
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Re: JUST A FEW QUESTIONS.

Post by celticpitbulls on Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:09 pm

ste wrote:mate just to let u know those dogs aren't even considered pitbulls anymore,they have been cross bred with molosser breeds and english bulldogs etc. they are called american bully's and because they are being bred purely for aesthetics they are developing a lot of health problems a lot of them can barely walk/run etc. each to their own if thats what your into but just beware of the breeders dealing in "rare blue" colours or for ridiculously big head,massive chest,short legs these dogs are not healthy......i know of a breeder of bully's in the states who seems to be breeding functional bullys here's the site [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] see what you think good luck

well said ste i have to agree, i have a mate in the states that said to me A few months back she went to an American Bullies show, she said it was the poorest representation of a BULLY BREED she have ever seen. They have taken an amazing breed the APBT, taken it to an extreme through exaggeration, of certain characteristics (short muzzle, short legs, much larger head, and an over all much larger dog). Over exaggeration leads to a non working type dog, which is the opposite of what the APBT should be. she said she watched as dogs where ran around a show ring (which was shaded) and a good portion of the dogs where so over exaggerated they where gasping for breath do to their brachi surfalic muzzles, she said their handlers where constantly having to spray their dogs with water in the ring, poor dogs look like a heavy weight body builder trying to run a mile.

If these dogs Razors Edge, Dagger Gotty or any other line like this is an APBT, where is the athleticism, and endurance in this line. they reminded me of the beginning stages of how the SOUR MUG (Modern English Bulldog) was designed. Since they are now calling it American Bullies versus APBT this shows me the originators to this breed also see the differences between the APBT and their American Bullies.
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Re: JUST A FEW QUESTIONS.

Post by ste on Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:51 pm

hey celtic :D i see you share my feelings for the american bullys Evil or Very Mad haha
celtic
To be honest ste there are just as many dog men who match dogs as there is back yard breeders here in Ireland you can trust me on that,

yeh i completely agree celtic about the dogs being fought over here on a large scale what i meant was i just dont think the majority are very knowledgeable, they just "fight dogs" without knowing the first thing about them.(maybe you know more about it)

celtic
i have to disagree on that 1, where do you think the jeep bloodline came from?? not sure if you ever heard of the dog called 34dollers?? and as i was explaining to you about gameness, even with a programed breeding from so called "dog man" gameness is NEVER guaranteed to any litter's out of ch bred dogs it has being knowing for these kind of breeding's to also produce as dog man would call them a litter of cur's, the truth is that you will never know if your dog is game unless he or she is tested and as we are so against dog fighting i guess we will never know and that is regardless of the way he or she is bred, i suppose our gameness as pet owners is our dogs eager to please clownish, loving loyalty spirit and in all fairness you could have a game dog and you wouldn't

yeh i heard of ch 34 but from what i know of the story his lineage was unknown im sure if the guy who sold him knew he would be a champion and make him a fortune he wouldnt have parted with him for 34 dollars,yeh i agree that you could have a game dog and never know but i think theres a much higher chance of getting game dogs if the parents were tested but sure we will never know with our petbulls Laughing

celtic
no dog is ever born with aggressive tendency, aggression is something that
develops over time when an owner doesn't notice the early signs such as dominant behavior etc, i would ask myself why my dog is starting to show these signs rather than put it down to the way he or she was bred.

yeh i agree with you that every dog is able to be handled with responsible ownership but i still think some breeds are more prone to certain types of aggression, for example if left to their own devices i believe you would have a lot more fights between 5 pitbulls than 5 german shephards,but think the shephards would have more potential to have human aggressive tendencies as they were bred as a guardian breed, as well the pitbulls have been bred not to back down to any challenge so something as trivial as a confrontation over a toy etc could escalate very quickly as neither is willing to submit

celtic
aggression is something that "dog men" will tell you they dont want in their dog, you can have an aggressive dog but he or she may not be game, meaning aggression doesn't even come into it when a dog is being hurt that is where the gameness comes into it. gameness means a dog will keep going regardless of the suffering and pain that poor dog is going true, aggression is not what saves them its heart. this is why i always say that most people think aggression is the main tool bred into pit bulls, when in fact what dog man are doing is trying to breed submission out of the breed.

i agree with you about the fact that "dog men" dont intentionally breed for dog aggression,but rather gameness, what i meant was because it wasnt being discouraged in the breeding,and it's quite a dominant breed it has established it in most cases,no breeders of any other breed would want overly aggressive dogs as standard but as these dogs were being matched anyway it didnt make a difference.....in the states dog aggression is not seen as a fault in pitbulls at shows as it's considered a breed trait

celtic
they weren't really developed into a new breed they were just not called "pit bulls" at that stage

well they were staffordshire bull terriers over here and england and when they reached the states they were selectively bred to be bigger(thats the americans for you) and changed their name and now there two distinct breeds, when they decided that pitbulls that didnt fight should be distinguished from the ones that did they developed the american staffortdshire terrier which was purely for the show ring,so you end up with the american pitbull terrier, american staffordshire terrier, and the staffordshire bull terrier

celtic
ste no 2 dogs will ever have the same temperament, there was more dog fighting and rating going on in Ireland and England than the states in the late 1800s, dog fighting was ban in Canada in 1892, The Cruelty to Animals Act 1835 of England and Wales was the first legislation in the world that made dog fighting illegal

thats the reason i think that americans have gamer dogs because we did it mostly in the 1800's and they did it on a large scale up until 1976 and still to this day so there game breeding and most of us are not


jesus that took me ages to write Razz good to get banter going on here with you celtic, celtic do u reckon it's long before we start seeing the am bully's popping up everywhere over here?

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Re: JUST A FEW QUESTIONS.

Post by celticpitbulls on Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:01 pm

[quote="ste"] lol you have me worn out with all this typing..

yeh i completely agree celtic about the dogs being fought over here on a large scale what i meant was i just dont think the majority are very knowledgeable, they just "fight dogs" without knowing the first thing about them.(maybe you know more about it)

yep don't be fooled as to the farming of knowledgeable game breeders here, and most if i must say involved are business men.

yeh i heard of ch 34 but from what i know of the story his lineage was unknown im sure if the guy who sold him knew he would be a champion and make him a fortune he wouldnt have parted with him for 34 dollars,yeh i agree that you could have a game dog and never know but i think theres a much higher chance of getting game dogs if the parents were tested but sure we will never know with our petbulls Laughing

thats what i was trying to say, 34 was a scattered bred dog just like a dog been bred from a back yard breeder...



yeh i agree with you that every dog is able to be handled with responsible ownership but i still think some breeds are more prone to certain types of aggression, for example if left to their own devices i believe you would have a lot more fights between 5 pitbulls than 5 german shephards,but think the shephards would have more potential to have human aggressive tendencies as they were bred as a guardian breed, as well the pitbulls have been bred not to back down to any challenge so something as trivial as a confrontation over a toy etc could escalate very quickly as neither is willing to submit

if left to their own devices any breed can get into a fight, it doesn't necessarily mean the dogs involved are aggressive, yes with the pit bull might have the upper hand because they are the stronger breed but that doesn't mean they would be the first to start more like the one 2 end it. but leaving dogs to their own devices without the proper caution would be setting them up for a fall that cant be blamed on the dog or breed but rather on the situation itself. in my experience aggression is down to people handling rather than specific breed.


i agree with you about the fact that "dog men" dont intentionally breed for dog aggression,but rather gameness, what i meant was because it wasnt being discouraged in the breeding,and it's quite a dominant breed it has established it in most cases,no breeders of any other breed would want overly aggressive dogs as standard but as these dogs were being matched anyway it didnt make a difference.....in the states dog aggression is not seen as a fault in pitbulls at shows as it's considered a breed trait,

thats true it is not classes as a fault because of the breeds history, but ask yourself this, most game dogs never get the chance to interact with a proper family like other breeds, so of course they will encounter behavior problems and this is put down to the breed itself its ridicules really because any breed if treated this way will develop the same issues, but from our own prof and owning the breed for 22 years i would honestly say otherwise.


well they were staffordshire bull terriers over here and england and when they reached the states they were selectively bred to be bigger(thats the americans for you) and changed their name and now there two distinct breeds, when they decided that pitbulls that didnt fight should be distinguished from the ones that did they developed the american staffortdshire terrier which was purely for the show ring,so you end up with the american pitbull terrier, american staffordshire terrier, and the staffordshire bull terrier

the pit bull has being around longer than most breeds today, even the staffordshire bull terrier, the staffordshire bull terriers standerd came from an APBT called pincher owned by JP Colby, yes the american staffordshire is more or less the same as the pit bull the name changed due to the kennel clubs not wanting to have the name pit involved in there club thats why am staffs were giving that name.
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Re: JUST A FEW QUESTIONS.

Post by celticpitbulls on Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:07 pm

ste wrote:jesus that took me ages to write Razz good to get banter going on here with you celtic, celtic do u reckon it's long before we start seeing the am bully's popping up everywhere over here?

yep i believe their here already ste .. i haven't seen 1 myself but have heard about them being in around the finglas area. im sure if its true it wont be to long b4 we see 1. affraid
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